128 – How New Tariffs Are Disrupting Healthcare and the Economy

Marcus: [00:00:00] If you enjoy this content, please take a moment to rate and review it. Your feedback will greatly impact our ability to reach more people. Thank you. Alright, Vic? Uh, I'm on three hours sleep and it's not because of the Jumpstart Health Summit. Uh, it's because of the topic that we discussed in the podcast with Senator.

Yeah, Brit. Uh, we had a long night here in Middle Tennessee. You you're very lucky. You, you seem to sleep through it. 

Vic: Yeah, well my dogs wake me up, but, but it's not, um. I just have decided if I'm gonna go in a tornado, I'm gonna go. I don't, I don't move to the basement. Trying to, but yeah, it was, uh, it's hard to sleep.

I know. You're, the sirens are loud where you are. I, I can hear 'em when I'm awake, but they don't wake me up outta sleep. They're, 

Marcus: they're right here in this neighborhood, so, you know, by the fairground. So, um, so yeah. Uh, in addition to every device in the house going off with nonstop tornado warnings, uh, we had the sirens in the neighborhood.

It was just impossible. So, um, I spent, I probably spent a couple [00:01:00] hours in, in the shelter? In the garage, um, with, uh, with my phone. Set to YouTube listening to Nashville, severe weather. Um, those guys were up all night. Uh, so for our listeners, especially those who are not in Nashville, we have a group of volunteer, um, uh, meteorologists.

And they're, they're, uh, they're tag is, uh, Nashville severe weather. So they're mostly on X, but they're also on blue sky. And, and then, and then whenever things get serious, they do a live stream on YouTube. Last night they had 60,000 people live watching. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah. And they just do an incredible job of like.

Actually translating what's going on. Because all you, all you get is these is alerts. Like, you know, without that context, you have no idea what's really going. You have 

Vic: no idea. You're like about to die or it's somewhere else in the county. That's exactly right. In it's county by county. 

Marcus: Yeah, that's exactly right.

And they, they, they can pretty much tell you area by area like what's going on. So anyway, long story [00:02:00] short, um, uh, woke up basically around three, haven't been back to sleep. Um, and then, and then, you know, we didn't have any tornadoes, thankfully that actually touched down. There's a lot of rotation, but we had these storms that were sort of back to back.

I'd never heard this term before. Had, had you ever heard the term of storms training? 

Vic: No, I don't even know what that means now. 

Marcus: Yeah. So I, so they, they kept saying these, these storms, they mean 

Vic: like a freight train maybe? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. See, so 

Marcus: you got it right away? Yeah. I thought they were saying they're training like, like they're building up or something.

It's like learning 

Vic: something. Yeah, yeah, 

Marcus: yeah. No, it is just this line of storm cells and they're just kind of one behind the next, like they're all on a track. Yeah. And, and that's what we, that's what we were dealing with last night. We had these storm cells and they were just training like one after the other.

So that's why we had tornado warnings, like up, down, over, over, right, over, over, over. 'cause we had another, and another, another storm cell, um, kind of blow through the area. So. Anyway, uh, the impact 

Vic: in around my [00:03:00] house was just a lot of water. I mean, I'm on sort of a top of a hill, but so much water. If you're in a low lying area, flooded.

Yeah. 

Marcus: Oh, I've seen videos of your area. I mean, yeah, if you're a low out lying area, there's no way you didn't get flooded. No way. Right? No way. With, with that amount of water. I mean, look like a river in the streets. I had a 

Vic: river going down the side of my yard, like a five foot wide, pretty fast moving like river, but it was going to someone else's house.

You know, it's going down the hill. 

Marcus: Right? Right. And, and, and, and we're not even done. So anyway, um, don't wanna bury the lead. We had a great, uh, jumpstart Health Summit on Tuesday. Um, you know, thanks to all of the incredible, uh, presenters who were there. Um, but we kicked it off with Senator Bill Ferris in, in, in an episode of the podcast that we will, uh, release soon.

I, I'm not sure when we're gonna get the final product on that, but we should get that soon. Maybe it might be two weeks out. Um, you know, yeah. Just given, uh, everyone's schedules and stuff like that, but great conversation. Um, and it's, it's, uh, you know, he's a [00:04:00] truly inspirational, you know, human being. 

Vic: Yeah, yeah.

And really, I hadn't focused on the connection between climate and health, but it makes a lot of sense. I mean, there, it's certainly mean, I don't wanna ruin the podcast for listeners, but there's a lot of connectivity between I. Climate change and health. Yep. Uh, so it is a healthcare topic. 

Marcus: Yep. Absolutely.

Absolutely agree. So, um, so yeah, so, so great sessions, uh, you know, great networking. It was great to have our investors in town and select portfolio companies who were either in the area or, you know, we, we really felt would've benefited from, from being there, um, at that time. So it was very good. Uh, and yeah, obviously, you know, not that much going on this week, right, right.

No, nothing going on America or the World News DC Right. Oh, man. Well, look, uh, I, I'm, I'm definitely not gonna be, uh, the strong leg on this show, so, um. You're gonna carry it, buddy. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna add color commentary. I'm here. I, it's a [00:05:00] moral victory that I'm even here. Yeah. Honestly. Um, and, uh, and so with that, let's dig in.

All right, Vic, let's start with. The thing that has dominated the week, which is Liberation Day. So today we are recording, it is Thursday, April 3rd. Yesterday April 2nd was, uh, a day framed as Liberation Day in which there were, um, blanket 10% tariffs, um, issued to well over a hundred count countries. And then, uh, reciprocal tariffs, um, to, it felt like it was a list of something like 30 countries.

Um, and then if, if the countries happened to be, you know, really emerging sort of on, on the, um, on, on the, uh. Sort of lower end [00:06:00] of economic strength. I think those reciprocal tariffs were more, um, half of what the existing tariff was with us. Um, so, uh, you know, the, the markets, you know, jumped off a cliff on this news.

There's been just so much buzz on social, a million different theories about how this is all going to play out. Um, some responses already coming from d various countries of, of different forms. You know, some dropping tariffs, some dropping investment in the United States. Just, you know, there's, it is a, it's sort of a checkered response in the initial 24 hours, um, you know, coming off of these, uh, this massive wave of tariffs and just sort of proves that, that this is a principled, uh, conviction, um, that the Trump White House has.

And, and they, they intend to see it through. 

Vic: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I, I was, um, concerned about how they would measure. Pick any country, what China is charging us, or what Vietnam's charging us or what Europe's [00:07:00] charging us because there's a lot of nuance and depends on how big the industry in question, maybe automotive is in that country versus our country.

A lot of judgment, I think goes into calculating, okay, we pay X in a total tariff to this country, um, and therefore we should charge y to be fair. And it was pretty interesting that they decided to, uh, sort of not match exactly, but match 50% ish. Um, wasn't always 50%, but I think that's because of all the judgment in the calculations.

So, so like when you're calculating our ability to sell rice in India, what does that, how does that affect the tariff as a percentage? And I thought it was pretty smart from a negotiating point of view that they, they didn't try to match directly. They sort of. Said, well, we're getting close, and then we're going to, you know, sort of say 50% of that.

Um, whether [00:08:00] it's a, you know, strategic misstep or brilliant, we won't know for a while, you know, a long, a long time. Yeah. A while. But, um, it was interesting that I think, you know, I, I typically watch, uh, both CNN and Fox on days like that, and it's a completely different event, you know, so like CNN is, is sort of framing it, um, for their audience.

And Fox, of course, was framing it for their audience. Um, Besson was interviewed by CNNI think he was sort of tasked with talking to cnn. Mm-hmm. And then, um, blood Neck was for Fox. Um, and it, it is what you would expect it to be, right? Like CNN is focusing on. All the things that could go wrong, which there are many, and Fox is focusing on the fairness and how it might go right.

I don't think anyone knows, but it's gonna cause a lot [00:09:00] of turbulence, a lot of challenges. I mean, I had a portfolio company today that we're trying to figure out, okay, what do we do with our pricing? Because our, uh, we sell wearables to RPM companies. Sure, yeah. And the prices are going up based, based on which one, and we have like 15 that we're selling, but anywhere from 25% to 75%.

Um, and we're gonna have to pass it on. The question is like, how much do we pass on? How do we do it at what pace? Everyone is, is talking about these things right now and it's not good. Maybe it'll be good a couple years from now if there's a negotiation and things get better, but right now it's turbulent.

Marcus: Yeah, it's, it's, it's certainly massive disruption to the supply chain. Massive disruption to many people's, um, you know, value network, massive disruption to the, the, the profit margins that people have sort of based their entire business model against. [00:10:00] Um, and so, you know, I think the obvious thing is that many businesses as they should, are going to be focused on, you know, making sure their core business is okay.

Uh, and that means there'll be less sort of innovation and, you know, trying to tackle net new, um, you know, markets, uh, of, of course software businesses will, you know. I think move pretty quickly through this process as they don't have a lot of hard assets. Um, everything they do is code and intellectual property.

And so, uh, there may be a pulling away in terms of value creation for, for software businesses versus businesses that are in the world of, of atoms, um, as, as things kind of bifurcate. But for healthcare, um, healthcare is absolutely in the world of bits, uh, absolutely in the world of atoms. And so, you know, um, supply chain issues, um, you know, and, and, and margin compression are gonna be a real, real problem in healthcare.

And I think it's just going to, uh, it's gonna slow [00:11:00] up the pace of innovation for sure. For, for, for a while. Yeah, for a while. 

Vic: Yeah. There's, I mean, even the Trump administration surrogates on TV and both sides last night were mean. There certainly is a transition process if you're friendly, I. Or, you know, a recession and, and really bad if you're not friendly.

But either way it's, I mean, the, going to the next, the second story today, the, the Dow dropped 1600 points. You know, in general, all the indexes were down about 6%. 

Marcus: Yep. 

Vic: Uh, it was the biggest, biggest fall in, in couple years, I think two and a half years. So, um, it's not just us saying this, you know, the, the stock market is, is reacting.

Not surprising, but, but. A little bit surprising that people didn't know it was coming. I think just, just, you know, there was hope that maybe it wouldn't stick or it wouldn't be so broad. 

Marcus: Well, I, I think, you know, there's, there's been a lot of, we don't know, is he negotiating? Is he posturing? Is he just [00:12:00] trying to get people to pay attention?

You know, uh, there's that whole thing and, well, no, not, not a, not a game. Not a game. Uh, US stocks post their worst quarters since 2022 on the threat of trade war, another Wall Street Journal story. Um, yeah. So yes, the Dow down s and p down Nasdaq, down, dollar down. Right. Um, so the whole, the, the whole economy, uh, takes a hit for this.

Vic: Yeah. Interest rates, which I'm watching also down, which is positive. Yes, yes. Um, so we'll see. Um, I think that's the barometer that I'm kind of watching, but it's gonna be 

Marcus: the, the VIX is at 30 right now. 

Vic: Yeah. Yeah. 

Marcus: I mean that is, that is like. 

Vic: Yes. 

Marcus: Yeah, that's, that's high. That's very, very high. So a lot of volatility out there, a lot of things moving around.

Um, you know, more, uh, more fun for the venture markets, more fun for us. 

Vic: Yeah. Right, 

Marcus: right. Uh, story from the Hill Senate Budget Blueprint empowers GOP chair to decide [00:13:00] if Trump tax cuts add to the deficit. What's going on here? 

Vic: Yeah, so this is kind of a wonky thing, but I think it's important to understand.

So the way the Congressional Budget Office scores new legislation, uh, allows for the Congress to then be able to estimate what the effect will be over a 10 year period. And as a matter of practice, I think forever, for as long as I've been following it, they would include. Um, like the, so what's happening is the taxes are, the tax cuts that Trump put in maybe in 2017, several years ago, are expiring.

And so the way the CBO would normally score it is they would have them sunset, and then if there are new taxes or, or a continuation of this tax break policy that would be scored as [00:14:00] a reduction in taxes because they have sunset for a moment in time. Um, and the Republicans have, I think, gotten their votes to change that rule, change that policy of how CBO scores things.

So that, I mean, they're making the case and whether we agree with it or not, I think they have the votes to push it through that the tax cuts are law today and continuing them would be no change. So that is a huge, um, benefit if you want to maybe add some tax cuts or, you know, go bigger. Um, it was not, they had to get, I think, 51 votes in the Senate and not a lot of Republicans are not excited about, you know, higher deficits.

Um, so all this activity around tariffs was the show yesterday, but I [00:15:00] think one of the more important things was about an hour and a half before that Trump had all the Senate Republicans in the oval and sort of, I don't know what happened in there, but he got them to agree to this, to this new interpretation of how CBO would, would go.

Um, so no one's really covered it because, because of all the tariff stuff, but I think it's, um, as big a story 'cause they're gonna, I think the way that they're planning to offset the pain to. Like everyday middle class consumers 'cause tax prices are gonna go up with tariffs is, I think they're planning to have significant reductions to taxes as kind of an offset for that.

Um, and whether that makes sense or not, I think they now have the parliamentary votes to push it through. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. Alright. Um, well, I, I think that was important to [00:16:00] bring up, uh, 'cause that's gonna be probably the story of next week actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Probably the story of next week, uh, wall Street Journal sends, uh, Senate pencils in $5 trillion for tax relief. Leaves blank spaces for spending cuts. More news around, uh, 

Vic: yeah, more of, more, it's related to the, it's related. They're sort of, um, the Senate is being pretty aggressive, but it doesn't match the house right now.

So they're kind of battering back and forth. But there's gonna be, I think an extension of the existing cuts and then additional. Cuts. 

Marcus: Yep. Yep. Makes sense. Uh, consumer sentiment hits lowest since 2022 as anxiety rises over inflation in jobs. Um, so there's a graph right at the top of this Wall Street Journal story, uh, from the University of Miss of Michigan, and you can basically see that consumer sentiment has jumped off a cliff, uh, since the start of the year.

Just, I mean, it's, it's almost straight down. 

Vic: Yeah. And this came out last week, so this is before the No big announcement [00:17:00] yesterday. 

Marcus: Right. 

Vic: Um, it didn't get better yesterday, 

Marcus: so No, of course not. And, and, and conversely, the expectations of inflation are straight up. Right. So Right, right. That just sort of shows how, how consumers are dialed into inflation, and of course, these, these tariffs are going to be inflationary to, you know, everyday consumers.

Vic: Yeah. Yeah. There's there's no question price will go up for, I. While the, the question is, it can be a real drag on the economy, people might start spending less where you get into a recession, which might dampen inflation in a, in a, in a way that's not helpful. Yep. Um, so we'll see. 

Marcus: Yep. Agree. Uh, okay, so we've got two back to back stories here around Core Weave.

So Core Weave is a company that I pod, uh, this week. Their whole thing is basically they're, they're effectively a cloud provider slash reseller of Nvidia chips and have grown very, very, very quickly. Uh, you know, multi-billion dollar valuation [00:18:00] company. Everyone's very excited because they're part of the AI boom.

Probably the first like proper multi-billion dollar ai, uh, IPO, um, kind of, kind of easy because they're, they're selling picks, um, at the Gold Rush. Yeah, right. But, but it sounds like they kind of stumbled out of the gate and maybe, um, recovered, uh, pretty quickly in the days after that. 

Vic: Yeah. So the IPO, um.

I think it was pretty disappointing in general. This story, this first story came out on Saturday. So the IPO was Friday and they sold a fewer shares because there was not that much demand. And then the, the offer was at $40 a share, and it did not, uh, it barely sort of got to $40 by the end of the day. It was, it was below there for a while and just not a, not a successful initial public offering.

Right. Um, so this first story is sort of noting that, and it, you know, we all, including me, we all were hoping it would be real successful and that maybe [00:19:00] oversubscribed or sell it lot, and then even there'd be demand to drive the price up. Uh, but that didn't happen. Um, but then the second story, you know, kind of moderates that a little bit because on Tuesday their stock went up 40%.

So they, so now they are well above the IPO price. A few days later, the. Reason, I think, is that Google put in a big order. They, they want more compute than they have even in their cloud. So they, they put in a big order to buy Nvidia chips through Core Weave in addition to what they get directly. And I think that then made people sort of rethink the, the core way of value.

Marcus: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I would imagine that. That people didn't quite understand the narrative and just sort of felt like what makes this company special? This is not defensible. There, there was, there's probably sort of that kind of analysis, which is why the IPO was, was flat. [00:20:00] Um, you know, 'cause, because basically the story for Core Weave is Nvidia, right.

You, you know, if Right. It's a, you know, 

Vic: NVIDIA is a, is a shareholder in Core Weave. Yeah. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Vic: That's the story. And they give them, they give them access to chips because they have a preferential treatment. 

Marcus: That's right. 

Vic: Um, I do think there is, um, it's a different cloud. It's a cloud that is designed like from the beginning for, for, um, AI use cases.

Right. So I think you can, you can design your cloud for AI in a much more effective way than the, the traditional clouds can, which has of course, has benefits in a technical way that I don't fully understand. But there's benefits there. 

Marcus: Yep. Of course. Of course. Uh, so I mean, good to see that they got the bounce.

Uh, you know, I think. The market is just going to have to come to terms with the fact that, uh, as long as these major tech companies have these robust balance sheets, um, they're going to continue to invest because they're all, they're all racing. [00:21:00] And, and, and I think rightfully so, the, uh, the breakthroughs that we see on a week over week basis, or at least you could say the meaningful ones we see on a month over month basis, you know, they do indicate that the, this class of, of technology, um, LLMs and all the related, you know, generative, um, ai, you know, models, you know, may not be a, a language model, but, you know, generating audio or video or images Yeah.

Or whatever, um, are, are, are definitely on their way to replacing human labor. Right. It, it, there's no question. Yes. Uh, y you know, as, as, as the conversation that we had at the summit between, uh, Nick Holland and Tar Kippur, uh, it, it's, it's not the technology anymore right now, now it's the adoption curve and Right.

Everyone wrapping their head around how, how to actually integrate this into the workflow of their business such that they can reliably, reliably and repeatedly, um, repeatedly, uh, deliver the value at that [00:22:00] lower cost. Nobody has really figured that out. Right? And I think if you're in the space, you sort of understand that that is the, that's the real frontier.

The model is not the frontier anymore. The frontier is actually change management, you know, and evolving the way we operate our businesses. Um, but I, I would imagine, you know, core, we will, will continue to have these little pops because they're gonna continue to have these really, you know, nice PR moments where they get to announce magnificent seven companies buying from them.

Vic: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're selling a product that is in incredible demand and I think likely gonna be in a shortage for a long time. And so I think that's right. Um, I agree. I think the, the, uh, AI talk was really good. Um. Nick Holland had the phrase of, you know, it is a combination of efficiency gains, lowering cost or effectiveness gains.

Yeah. Letting your people kind of do more, be more effective. Um, and yes, that, [00:23:00] that, how do I use it now? This tool is, is really powerful. How do I embed it into my workflow and, and figure out how to actually utilize it in my core business? That's the next couple years I think, probably. 

Marcus: Yeah. Agree. Agree.

Alright, moving into our VC rundown, uh, Ventura raises $20 million to help employers administer IRAs. Uh, so this was led by Informed Ventures and American Family Ventures, and in total this company has raised $30 million. 

Vic: Yeah. And Icra, uh, I don't know how much we've talked about it, but it's something that I'm really watching.

It's that individual coverage, health reimbursement, so employers can. Provide, um, an amount of money to their employees pre-tax, just like normal healthcare benefits. Yep. Um, but it is in a spendable healthcare bucket. Um, and then they can go purchase, whether it's on exchange or elsewhere, that can purchase their own customized [00:24:00] plans in a much more configurable way for whatever their, their family needs are.

It's a pretty interesting, uh, thing to watch, I think, in healthcare because it's gonna, um, I think it's gonna challenge how we underwrite risk. I mean, the reason the works in employers is you have a pool of people that all kind of come together. Um, if you've, if you underwrite risk per person, that's a very different thing.

And some employees obviously have more risk, higher, higher expenses than others. So, 

Marcus: so maybe this is something I don't understand about a, um. I, I thought the point of, of utilizing an IRA for the employer is to kind of back out of all things, um, underwriting. You know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it goes to that, that, that's the point.

It's, it is a pure financial arrangement, right? For the employer saying, look, I, I'm, I'm honoring the social contract that has been here for [00:25:00] decades in so far as I'm contributing to your healthcare coverage, but I'm not, I'm not managing it and administering it on your behalf. Like, you know, here's your cash.

There's plenty of options out there. Maybe I, maybe I partner with a Stride Health, or, you know, one of these other platforms. Right? And, and, and is that really the, is that really the point of Ventura or, or, you know, is Ventura sort of helping the employer, um, do more than just money in terms of making sure the employee has.

Has access to the best plans that they possibly could, because, you know, even though the employer is not doing it, the employer is bringing a whole bunch of employees with them. Right. So there's, there's still a volume that's there, um, that makes it worth it for a platform to sort of sit in there, partner with the employer, but deliver value to employees at scale.

Is that, is that, is that kind of the, the model here? Yeah, I think, I 

Vic: think that's right. The, the analogy I think is close is the, in the eighties we moved from pension plans where, [00:26:00] you know, you had a defined benefit. You were gonna get this much in your retirement, and the employer had to manage that risk.

Marcus: Yeah. 

Vic: Uh, to 4 0 1 Ks to find contribution. And I think this is similar where mm-hmm. Instead of as an employer, me saying, okay, to all the employees, I'll, I'll create a healthcare benefit. Maybe there are a couple options, but, but everyone's gonna be on this plan. And then I underwrite the whole population.

Um. It's my risk to manage. 

Marcus: Right. 

Vic: The Ben, the employees have the benefit, right? And instead they're, they're, they're defining their contribution. I'll give every employee $10,000 or whatever the amount is. Right. And then you have to figure it out. And, um, I think that makes sense for the business. Yes. But it is, um, it's going and this, this is what they're raising money to do that you need a platform to help the employees navigate that.

Marcus: Yes. 

Vic: I'm just saying that, um, people have the health status they [00:27:00] have and it is gonna be hard for someone who has a lot of health, future health costs, risks to navigate that in a way that's, I think, pretty different than retirement planning because it's much more like right now. But, but that's the path we're on.

Marcus: Yeah. I mean, it, it, it has to be the path because it, it, it has become. Uh, I mean, espec look, especially when you add on this tariff pressure, right? It, it's, it's just not viable for every year. You know, these costs to increase somewhere between seven to 10%, right? It's just, it is just not so, you know, 

Vic: but what it's, what it, what I fear it's gonna do is, what it's definitely gonna do is show the employees the amount of money that their employer is paying for them.

Like instead we're, we're giving you $15,000, and it will feel [00:28:00] much more transparent to each employee. Like, okay, I have this money, now I need to buy health insurance. Sure. That, that I think is a benefit, but it's also gonna create this awareness that, okay, now if I'm young and single and healthy, that 15 K is gonna go a long way.

Right. I can get all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And if I have chronic disease. It's gonna be really hard for me to get Yeah, 

Marcus: yeah. 

Vic: The plant. And so you're not gonna have an equal set of benefits. Yep. Which is going to just be cause tension. And I don't know how that ends, but it's gonna be complex. 

Marcus: Yeah. I mean, it probably means, uh, you know, businesses that overindex on young people have a much easier time going to IRAs than ones that have, you know, sort of a multi-generational workforce.

Yes. Because the change, you know, the cultural change is just kind of too difficult. Too difficult there. Right, right. Right. Okay. [00:29:00] Yeah. Alright. Notable system snags, 12 million in a series B. Uh, not a huge series B, but I'm not mad at that. Um, so this is an RCM startup for medical equipment providers. Um, and who's in on the deal?

Harbor Growth Partners. Okay. So you've got a growth partner. So that, this probably tells me, uh, actually no, they're not yet profitable. Generate between 5 million and 10 million in revenue. Um, they had raised 8.8 million prior to that round, so they've raised about 21 million in total. Yeah. So 

Vic: this story and the next one, and we talked about it last week actually.

Yeah. Revenue cycle management continues to be like the number one place where theses are investing in companies. 

Marcus: Yeah. It seems like a bit too much at this point. 

Vic: Well, there's sort of, I think there's a brewing arms race. Uh, I, I had a dinner right before the summit. We were talking about this. There's like this arms race between providers and payers around using technology to.

Uh, either get your claims [00:30:00] adjudicated and paid if you're a provider. Or make sure that you're not paying fraudulent claims or, or paying as little as possible for your a payer. A lot of these deals are funding one side or the other. This one happens to be on the provider, the DME side. 

Marcus: I, I'd like to find the right person, not not on the staff at at HFMA, but, but someone in the HFMA universe who's, you know, very close to evaluating all these different solutions to maybe come on as a guest.

'cause we, you're right, we talk about this every week and I, I want more context into the viability of all these different shots on goal in the RCM space. It's already a very robust space, um, in terms of like vendors, uh, and companies and, and solutions. Yeah, there's big companies 

Vic: and then now there's a whole bunch of, 

Marcus: yeah, and, and, and, and by the way, epic is also in this space too, right?

Like that's, that's the other thing. You know what I mean? So I, I'm, I'm not quite sure. I, I know on the outside it seems like a, a no-brainer, but. I'm just wondering, can you get [00:31:00] past that first two to 3 million in revenue? You know, very easily. So, 

Vic: yeah. And I think there's a lot of question around can you defend margins?

Pricing in margins? Yeah. With, with so much entry. 

Marcus: Yeah. Rapid claims corrals 11 million for claim denial prevention. So this is just the, the race, you know, this is just the Yeah, same, same thing. The war thing, right? Yeah. It's just the war. This is the venture capital story from, uh, wall Street Journal Pro Post core weave Venture investors rethink their outlook on, on ip.

Okay. I mean, 

Vic: I mean, that was when it was really flat, and it's still probably a rethinking. I mean, there wasn't a lot of appetite for the IPO, but then it has done better. So, I don't know. It's a, it's a hard, it's hard to know if IPO's gonna be viable or not. 

Marcus: Sure. Okay. Now this next story, this is a big one.

Uh, stable coin issuer circle files for IPO is public markets open to crypto. So this is, this is a very, very big deal. This is a big deal. Um, so Ferno doesn't know sort of how the stablecoin [00:32:00] industry works. Basically, these are tokenized dollars. Um, and there are, there, there's actually different ways to do this.

Um, the, the leader in the market is a company called Tether. And, um, they actually do not, uh, have a one for one match for every digital or tokenized dollar, I should say. Um. With, with an actual dollar. They actually have a, a, a pretty mixed balance sheet of, you know, uh, just, you kind of think about it like a portfolio, you know, they've got all sorts of assets in there.

They aggregate it up and it, and it, you know, they say it matches their, their, their dollars that they have. And, and this, this, this is a very important, um, capability because it brings dollars global, right? Without the need to leverage the swift, um, you know, network or the Visa rails or the MasterCard rails or the American Express rails.

Um, and so it, it, and you can get in and out of, uh, uh, stable coins, which are, which are denominated in dollars. So they, they are effectively dollars, right? You can get in and out of them on all sorts of exchanges [00:33:00] all over the world, which is great. Um, and you can also, you know, get into them leveraging crypto, right?

So, so it, it is a way sort of move between these very volatile, highly risky assets that some people have their core net worth built in. And in some places it's like, you know, the, the infrastructure, the their own, their own nations. Um, uh, uh. Currency is, is, you know, so all over the place, but they don't have the ability to sort of hold real dollars.

It brings dollars into markets where it's very difficult to bring dollars into. So this, this is a, this is a huge way to, to actually continue the strength of the dollar, quite frankly. Yeah. Um, in a very disruptive time. It, it, it continues the strength of the dollar because it, it increases the access of dollars, you know, beyond the old proprietary rails that, that the dollar has been running on, uh, for, you know, let's just call it the last 50 years.

Right. 

Vic: Um, yeah. And, and, uh, tether and I think circle both it, they [00:34:00] do have a portfolio of assets, but there's a lot of. US Bonds, mostly US bonds, I think. Yeah. Well, I think so. They're a buyer of bonds. 

Marcus: I, I think Circle is a lot more sort of compliant and US government friendly than Tether. Yes. Yes. I think that's the, the, that's the big difference.

Circle is smaller, but it is like, it's kind of the USA version of Right. Of this. Yes. Um, and I think, you know, they, we, we, we know, we know, uh, someone in, in their, their senior management team, uh, Dante Desante, um, you know, he's a, he's an old friend. Uh, yeah. And you know, I think they have a fantastic relationship with, uh, other blue chip companies like Coinbase.

So this, this is big. And also there's a lot of, uh, stable coin legislation on the way right now. Yeah. Um, that, that I think everyone at pace make it out worth, 

Vic: I think it's worth it to explain the business model. 'cause it's not complicated. No. And a lot of people don't understand it. So they, you can buy a.

USDC [00:35:00] coin, it is gonna be fixed at a dollar. That's their purpose. To keep it worth $1. It doesn't change in price. That's the whole goal of it. And then to support that and be credible, circle then buys $1 of say a two year bond. Yep. Um, and they do not pay interest on the, the token that you have bought. So it's worth the dollar.

It'll be worth the dollar next month, next year. But you're not gaining interest on that. It's like a saving, it's like an old savings, uh, I guess checking account. They don't pay anything on it. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Vic: Um, but then they're getting interest on, they are, they, they're getting 4%. They, they Cs getting interest.

Yeah. Yeah. They get all the interest. That's the, this, so that's the business model. It's very profitable and it's, and I think it's good for the US economy 'cause we need to sell, we need to refinance something like $9 trillion in debt this year. And circa and tether both or. A bunch of other countries are too.

But, but, uh, more buyers of us debt [00:36:00] is good. 

Marcus: Yeah. And, and stable coins create a, a really, sort of, pretty straightforward way, uh, to, to move healthcare payments into crypto because they're dollar denominated. I mean, that's all you really need is a dollar denominated. Okay, fine. That doesn't change any of my stuff.

Um, I think it, I think many, I think there, there's an argument to be made that you can, you can get better transaction fees. Um, I. On crypto rails than you can on credit card rails, right. So obviously, so there's no 

Vic: question about that. There's no question 

Marcus: about that. Yeah. Yeah. There, there's not a super high market of buyers today, but I think there can be, um, I think especially among, you know, um, uh, you know, millennials on down, I think there can be a much, much larger buying market leveraging USDC, uh, which is circle's specific brand of, uh, uh, dollar denominated stable coin.

And, um, yeah, th this, this could be the way that, you know, not, not using Bitcoin to buy surgeries. Right. But I think you, you could buy it with USDC. [00:37:00] So, 

Vic: yeah, I mean, healthcare, because most of our healthcare audience is in the us you know, the, the, the transaction markets work pretty well here, but, but if you are Coca-Cola and you have offices all over the world.

This is a much more effective way to move liquidity back and forth. You don't have to worry about currencies, you do it in circle or tether, and then when you get to the local currency, you just switch into whatever you need to pay the vendors in. Yeah. It's much easier than the old way and much cheaper.

Marcus: Yeah, that's right. And you know, if you've got an enterprise, uh, Coinbase account, you don't have to go like USDC to Bitcoin. You can go USDC to USD, you know? Right. Yeah. You can go, you can go dollar stable coin $2. Right, right. So it's, it's not even really exotic at all. Right. It's just, it's just saying we want to get off the, the, the old rails and we want to get onto the faster, more efficient global, you know, toll-free rails of, of, [00:38:00] uh, of, of crypto.

Right? 

Vic: Yes, yes. So we mean, I think we, it's good we're gonna have CCO in the us us domicile do lot of us. Owners, us backed on the US Exchange. Yeah, it's great. And then Tether is, tether is global. Yeah. And they're both, they're both buying a bunch of US debt, which is good. 

Marcus: That's right. That's right. Alright.

Uh, this is journal story. The m and a boom, wall Street Wanted is here if you know where to look. So relatively smaller deals are up and sectors such as pharma are seeing more activity. All right. I like this story. 

Vic: Yeah. So like half midway down, the, the sort of pretty good graphic of not so big deals based Yeah.

Based on the, so not so big is, uh, over 500 million, but less than a billion. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Vic: Um, and then a billion to 5 billion in five to 10 billion. Those actually, there's been a decent, a lot of value, a lot of m and a deals in the first quarter. Um, the very small deals, which, you know, not that small from my point of view, but under 500 million.

Those are down, are not, so, [00:39:00] not so yeah, those are down. Yeah. And the very large ones are down, over 10 billion are down. 

Marcus: Yeah. That's interesting. That's pretty interesting. Okay. That's, that's, that's actually a good data point, um, to, to understand and to track. Alright. Uh, Carta came out with their 2024 VC fund performance report.

Um, you know, the headline here, the boom times of 2022 have come to an end the LP basis, downsize anchor checks have shrunk. Venture managers are adapting to a new reality. And, uh, Carter's sort of framing it all up. I sent this over to you. Uh, you know, the highlights were really what I, what stuck out to me.

Um, and they have sort of three bullet points, but this last one, most newer funds are still waiting for D-P-I-D-P-I for, for the lay munition distributions. Um, and half of all funds from the 2018 vintage have still not distributed any capital back to their LPs. So, you know, normally when we, when we're discussing, I.

Uh, you know, newer funds, we think kind of from 2020 on. Um, but you know, this is saying half of all funds from [00:40:00] 2018. This is just, you know, seven, eight years ago, um, have still not distributed any capital back to their lp. So that's, that's pretty shocking that half of those funds have not sent a single dollar.

Not a single dollar, yeah. Back to their LPs because they're in 

Vic: year seven. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. But not a single, but not a single dollar. Right. Right. Um. And then for more recent vintages, uh, just 26% of funds from 2020 have returned, which is sort of make that tracks. And then 12% of funds from 2021 have begun to record DPI.

So, um, yeah, that just tells you everything you need to know about why fund sizes are shrinking, firms are shutting down. LPs are, uh, pushing out any net new fund, um, additions to their portfolios, to 26, and in some cases 27. Um, there's, there's, there's, uh, a lack of liquidity in the market. 

Vic: Yeah. And it's all intertwined, right?

Like if, if the 20 18, 20 [00:41:00] 19, 20 20 funds don't return capital for people that aren't in venture all the time, I think of it like a 4, 4, 4, the first four years of a fund, you're pretty much investing in new things. The second four years you should be having things grow, but also getting a couple exits. And beginning to send money back, and then the last, it should be a 10 year fund, but they always go a little bit longer.

So the last four years, you're kind of winding things down and it's over year seven, having half the funds not returned. That then means the LPs don't have money to reinvest. It all gets kind of like gummed up maybe. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it, it's great to have Carta in the market with sufficient data to be able to sort of give us the, you know, in, in a, they, they, they're, they've always been these benchmarks, but they, I think before they were like behind paywalls very, you know, overly analytical.

Yeah. I, I love, I do love that Carta [00:42:00] kind of makes this into simple blogs and podcasts and, you know, single chart emails where anyone can sort of digest what's actually happening in the industry. So it is, it is something I really appreciate that they've, they've turned on over the last two years.

Definitely. Um, so there was an EO that, that you and I missed, and I, I think it was because it, it didn't say anything specific to healthcare, but, um, I was reading, there's a, uh, there's a, there's an email that Manatt puts out, I think it's called like the 80 million, um, and, uh, I think it's like focused on Medicaid and Medicare.

They put a, put a spotlight on this particular eo, so it was issued on March 20th. And, uh, the, the name of the executive order is Stopping Waste, fraud and Abuse by Eliminating Information Silos. And so it's not a very long one. It's, it's very easy to read. The general theme of this is that, um, federal agencies, uh, need to eliminate any information silos.

Um, so that means they need to [00:43:00] find ways to, to bring all the data to light that they have. And then even, I think where it really taps into healthcare is. That extends to the states that they fund. So if, so, if they're, if that agency happens to fund a particular state agency, let's talk about CMS and Medicaid.

Right. Um, then really, uh, they now have a charge via this. It's not, you know, it's, it's not like a a a, a green light to do it. It's a charge. You must do this, these agencies now must go down at, at the state level and force these states to start to deliver data at a level that previously they are not used to doing.

So I think this is going to create a reporting burden on state Medicaid agencies. That's gonna be pretty significant. Um, of course on the other side of that, it should be a good thing, right? 'cause you know, hopefully we get more [00:44:00] comparison about how different states are performing in terms of their efficiency and effectiveness with the dollars that they receive from the Feds.

Um, but in the meantime, uh, it, it's going to create more crawl at, at the state Medicaid, uh, agency level. And that is going to, you know, be an issue. I think it's gonna be an issue for managed care, uh, you know, organizations that are partnering with those agencies in the cases where that's the, where that's happening.

And certainly when you think about innovative models that are going to be happening there, they're, they're gonna have a hard time just reporting the data on the existing programs that they've got running, much less creating, you know, any net new sort of projects. 

Vic: Yeah, I agree completely. I mean, this is the kind of executive order that it, it makes a lot of sense, like eliminating waste.

Inefficiencies duplication, of course, I'm in favor of that. 

Marcus: Sure. 

Vic: But then it's gonna create a burden on states that already have a lot of burden. And then one [00:45:00] person's waste is another person's valuable health product. And so how do we, how do we determine that? That's not clear. So I don't know. I mean it's, it could be great.

It could also be a lot of administrative burden and then really valuable programs from a lot of recipients point of view Get cut. 

Marcus: Yeah. And, and you know, I also think, just think about the fact that I. Uh, this is now the third administration in a row where we have not had an incumbent, so there's not been much continuity between CMS and the state agencies.

You know, over the course of the last eight years, now we have yet another switch. And so these data requests, I don't believe they're going to be, um, you know, and with, with the sweetest, you know, vibes, you know, attached to them. Right. Yeah. Because Right. It's, it's sort of a net new relationship that's being formed here.

Yeah. Right. Alright. Uh, and on the heels of that, let's talk about, uh, health department begins sweeping job cuts. So, C-D-C-F-D-A-N-I-H, [00:46:00] um, are all shedding thousands of workers. We talked about this last week, um, 20 out of 80,000, 20,000 out of 80,000, uh, jobs either from the, the offer to sort of, um, you know, take the buyout or just 10,000 jobs that were just eliminated, um, are, are, are greatly shrinking the size of, of HHS.

And a lot of people are, are concerned about that. A lot of people are concerned. 

Vic: Yeah, that's right. I mean, it is, um, it's, I I feel the same as the last story. If there is waste and we have too many people and it's not even that working that well, then we should make it more efficient. But, but they're moving really quickly.

So there's a, there's a decent chance that they're gonna. Let some really good people go. And so it was th it was thousands of people on Tuesday that were laid off, or, or, and actually they couldn't even access [00:47:00] their computers and all their stuff. They had to be sort of escorted in and allowed to do that.

Marcus: Yep. Yep. Vanderbilt University Medical Center braces for $250 million budget cut as Trump admin slash his spending. This is a Axios Nashville story. So Nate Rao, um, local journalist, uh, covering this, um, they apparently got the news that Jeff Balzer, who's the C who's the, um, CEO and president of VUMC, um, shared this news with the team.

Um, in response to actions being taken in DC uh, baller said EMC's research Enterprise would experience a hit as well as administrative areas such as human resources. And it, so, um, you know, $250 million is nothing to shake a stick stick at. That is a very significant, um, decrease in, in, in, uh, in top line budget.

Vic: Yeah, it's going to, it's gonna really affect the Nashville job market. I mean, there's a lot of people that are gonna lose their job, and I think they have to do it because of the overhead, the NIH overhead cuts. [00:48:00] Yeah. Now, um, it seems like Zer is getting kind of a little bit in front of it, which probably is smart to do.

Yep. Yeah. Uh, but it's going to, it's gonna cause, you know, the Nashville market to have an effect for a little while. 

Marcus: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's coming sooner or later. I, I, you know, I, I personally consider that to be good leadership to just Yeah. Right. Just go ahead, you know, do it. Yeah. Yeah. Fa face it. Say it, it, it, it's, it doesn't surprise anybody, you know.

Right. When, two weeks ago we heard that Johns Hopkins is losing $800 million. Like it's not a surprise Right. That you're gonna lose 250, right? 

Vic: Yeah, that's right. 

Marcus: Press release this week. Trump Media is debuting on the New York Stock Exchange, Texas, um, and will in fact be the first listing on the new Texas Exchange.

Vic: So, um, I don't know how important a company Trump Media is gonna be, but, but it symbolically we've been following the text exchange, so it's just interesting that, that it's gonna be the first one out there. I think it is. Um, true [00:49:00] social is the big asset they have. 

Marcus: Yes, yes. 

Vic: Um, they have a bunch of crypto stuff too, but I don't think it's in Trump media.

Marcus: Yeah, yeah. No, no, true, true, true. Social is the, is the, you know, uh, is for sure the, the, the key asset in the, in this platform. And look, I mean, it, I I, I don't think the size of it really matters. I think it's the, it's the, I think it's this symbolism here, right? Yeah. Um, that, that Donald Trump is, is is the one launching, uh, the very first company on this, on this net new exchange in Texas, right?

Vic: Yeah. Right. 

Marcus: All right. Uh, you also tell me about this one. I, I, i, I was not tracking from, uh, bleeping computer.com. North Korean IT worker Army expands operations in Europe. What is going on here? This sounds like a Netflix special or something. 

Vic: Yeah, so what they do in North Korea is they apply to tech jobs that are, that are remote working possible, and they set up, um, [00:50:00] like a server farm or a bunch of cell phones that are in Europe and they've already done it in the us That's how I know the story.

And so the, the person applies, um, and they say they're Chinese or they're Vietnamese or you know, they say that they're somewhere else South Korean. Um, but they're living in this place. And a lot of technology companies have enough workers working remote that they don't ever meet in person. And so they basically infiltrate these companies so that they can then.

You know, perform cyber attacks from the inside. So oftentimes they'll have 3, 4, 5 jobs. Um, and they're, they can be lower level jobs. They're not really in it for the money. They're in it for the access and credentials. I think that's how Verizon got hacked is my understanding of that's how Verizon hacked.

So they're now expanding to Europe is, is the story. And it's, it's difficult to stop because you need to [00:51:00] hire a lot of tech workers and when they're remote, it is hard to tell where they actually live. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, I, I, I, I do think that that's an important story because it, you know, it just means that, uh, you know, these, these bad actors that, um, are, are very effective.

Uh, I think it's important to understand how effective the, the state sponsored North Korean, um, hackers are, yeah, are, are becoming more distributed and, uh, that means they will become more, uh, more dangerous. So, yeah. Um, obviously not good for healthcare, right? Not good for healthcare, 

Vic: right? 

Marcus: Yeah, go ahead.

Vic: Well, I should say we have a story coming up about a, a hack that got through. So, 

Marcus: uh, modern healthcare health insurers slash thousands of jobs, more cuts ahead. So all of these, you know. Changes that are happening, um, are going to drive some, some, some serious changes, uh, are gonna [00:52:00] drive some serious changes at, on the payer side, uh, of the fence.

And UnitedHealth Group tends to be early on this, um, they've got, you know, great data. So their ability to leverage actuaries and, and modeling to forecast and kind of figure out what, you know, how to get out in front of these types of things, um, is, is, uh, kind of unparalleled. So I feel like anytime we've seen them do cuts it, it kind of signals that others may, may do, cuts in a more reactionary way, you know, um, and, uh, they, they are, they're, they're issuing a, you know, a, a round of cuts pretty early in the year.

Vic: Yeah. And, and if you scroll down, you can see that the graphics, um, United has grown pretty dramatically. Uh, but then as you pointed out, that they are kind of like Vanderbilt. They're taking the initiative in cutting. Again, pretty dramatically. So, um, other, other payers are also cutting, but not in the same, not the same pace.

Marcus: No, not at the same pace. The united [00:53:00] is is first in that. Right. So, um, so yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll see how others, how others choose to respond. Um, but Al always, you watching their first mover in the payer space is, is, uh, usually indicative of something, you know, a larger wave that's coming. Right. Okay. Who should pay for Ozempic is the next big workplace fight.

I feel like every week we now have like a story that's kind of Yes. Themed like this. Right, 

Vic: right. Yeah. So, I mean, go ahead. Well, the, the, um, the compounding, uh, loophole is now closed, right? So it's more expensive. There are no more like very cheap options. And so now you have to, I think the lowest is, it's now $500 a month is sort of where the price is.

If you're. If you're shopping around, it can be higher than that. Okay. And so there's a lot of, um, concern over how much cost that's gonna be. 

Marcus: Yeah. You know, I, I, I [00:54:00] just, I just saw another brand that looked so much like HIMMS or hers, but it wasn't HIMMS or hers and they were out selling the compound. And like, I, I saw it like last week or maybe even Monday on, on television.

So it's like, I know the compound thing is supposed to be closed off and the FDA has has agreed with Lillian Novo on this, but it's not clear to me that, that the, the telehealth folks have, have actually stopped doing it yet. 

Vic: Yeah. 

Marcus: Are you still seeing stuff 

Vic: out there? Um, no, but I haven't really been paying attention that much.

So there certainly could be some, the FDA does not have much or any enforcement, um, personnel and so like 

Marcus: Right. 

Vic: Their ability to actually. Halt a compounder from doing this, I think is pretty limited. Um, but you, I think what you're getting is smaller and, um, companies that are more able to spin up, make some money for six [00:55:00] months or a year or a year and a half, and then, and then they move on, and maybe that entity is shut down.

I don't think you're gonna have a group like hims. Um. Risking their, their enterprise value at that level. 

Marcus: Okay. So this next story, I think is what you were referring to. Bleeping computer again. Uh, Oracle Health Breach compromises patient data at US Hospital. So apparently Oracle has not publicly disclosed this incident.

Um, but private communication sent to, uh, impacted customers, um, confirmed that patient data has been stolen in the attack. So I, I guess my, my question about this is, is, uh, no, it says right here, February 20th, 2025. So it's this year. 'cause obviously we know that that Ascension is on Cerner and Ascension had like a massive, massive hack.

This is not the first time, this is different. This is different. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

Vic: Right, right. Yeah. Okay. This is, it's not the first time. It, you know, I doubt it'll be the last time. Yeah. No. Um, but I wanted to bring it up because of the, it's just a little bit confusing. So [00:56:00] supposedly down in the story, which we don't need to scroll to, but, uh, seemed Vermer, which who I interviewed a couple weeks ago, uh, for the podcast here.

Yep. Um, I guess I haven't seen it, but blinking computer saw a, what they call a formal communication signed by sema, but not an Oracle letterhead on this plain letterhead to, uh, companies that were affected, which is kind of a, I don't know what to make about that, but, um, but I guess, uh, the former Cerner, I mean Cerner server, uh, not the new Oracle Health product mm-hmm.

But they have lots of, or Cerner servers out there, um, got hacked and there was patient data that was lost or taken, 

Marcus: you know, and, and, and I think there's also sort of a theme here. Um. Where that's, that's kind of what happened with United, right? Like United bought Change Healthcare and you know, maybe they hadn't quite gotten their arms around the tech yet, but it [00:57:00] was, you know, it was older technology, right?

Yeah. Right. And, and so it was compromised, and I think it's kind of a similar thing here, right? Oracle acquired Cerner, you know, for all these years it's been operating, it has not been an Oracle product, right? It's been a Cerner product. And you know, they're probably trying to kind of wrap, you know, get their Oracle arms around it, but there's all these, you know, installs everywhere that are, you know, yeah.

That have to, have to be managed. Exactly. And, and so that, that to me feels like, um, a theme here when some of these legacy tech companies are being acquired by the larger, more dominant, you know, for future forward thinking players. Sometimes it's got like a negative aspect to it, right? Where, where you're, yes, you're getting the, the, the install base, but you're also getting the technical debt.

Um, and that technical debt comes with vulnerabilities. And you know, right now, e you know, EHRs are a honeypot. 

Vic: Right. That's right. And, and there's so much value in that honeypot. There's North Koreans or other bad actors attacking [00:58:00] many millions of times a day, and they only have to get through once you gotta stop 'em all.

And so it's just hard to stop a hundred percent if attacks. 

Marcus: Yeah. Okay. FTCs case against drug man managers on hold after commissioners fired. 

Vic: Yeah. Yeah. So this is, um, 

Marcus: yeah, 

Vic: it's just an interesting story that is sort of like what, uh, fortunately I think we're gonna see that, um, the C only has, um, with, they, they got rid of the Democrats, so they only have the Republicans, three Republicans on there, and all of them are conflicted.

And they put in this, uh, conflicts of interest policy now, um, which I, I agree with the kinds of interest. If you're conflicted, you shouldn't take part. But, but they can no longer pursue the case because the entire board is conflicted and therefore they, I don't think they're gonna pursue it. It's the, um, [00:59:00] drug, the, uh, like the PBMs, what they're, that's the case that they're referring to.

Marcus: Uh, I I, no comment. 

Vic: So it's like unintended consequences, like Yes. 

Marcus: I mean, if you're afflicted, but 

Vic: you should build a, build a commission that they put in a blind trust or they, or they don't have conflicts or something so they can do their job. I mean, I don't know. It seems like a unforced error. 

Marcus: Uh, um, I, you know, I, I think my problem with this is simply that, um, you know, you, you, you say it's unintended consequences and it's like.

I, I don't mean to say it's an intentional consequence, but the speed of of change without concern for change management is going to break things. [01:00:00] Yes. Like there's no serious adult who doesn't know that. Yeah, that's right. So, so it just, you know. Yeah. So of course, of course you can't, it's 

Vic: unintended. But they, but they could have, they should have known that they would break a variety of things.

I think they must know they're gonna break things. So they laid off all these people. They change, I mean, whatever it is, over a hundred s they're just moving at an incredibly fast pace, and there's gonna be, there's gonna be an impact to that. 

Marcus: Yeah. There's definitely gonna be an impact to that. So anyway, I, I just kinda, um.

It's, it's, it's hard to have a real comment on that. Right. You know, it's like of course your, your case. Yeah. I just thought it was a, 

Vic: it was a perfect, uh, story to exemplify what's happening. I mean, I, I don't, I'm not so concerned about the PBM case Exactly. That. I don't know. I mean, but, um, but it just is [01:01:00] indicative of kind of where we are.

Marcus: Sure. Uh, Trump's tariffs could blow up big Pharma's tax shelter. What's, what's the story here? 

Vic: Yeah. So, um, pharma, but also, um, the Mag seven, anyone with, with a lot of IP Ireland created a tax haven 

Marcus: Oh yeah, sure. Typically, 

Vic: specifically for IP based 

Marcus: companies. Sure. Yep, 

Vic: yep. Um, and this is what I was meant when I was talking about the terrorists in their first story.

Like, so the Trump organization is somehow interpreting, um, the effect that these tax. Um, benefits in Ireland have and translated as like an effective tariff. Um, in order to stop that, I think that probably is fine, but, but we are changing tax law that's been around for a long time. So, um, again, there's gonna be, there's gonna be a change management that is gonna be hard to undo.

Marcus: Got it. Alright. [01:02:00] I'm gonna make it the AI rundown. Yes. Uh, we started with this, this, uh, this study, uh, from Dartmouth. Title is First Therapy chat bot trial yields mental health benefits. So, uh, Dartmouth's AI powered Thera Bott to uh, was, was likened to working with a therapist. So, um, this, I I like this an actual clinical trial.

That's, that's great. 'cause we, we, we've gotta figure out how we're going to advance this, um, into something that can be considered clinically, uh, uh, you know, solid and, and and of efficacy so that we can start. Treating people and getting reimbursement for it. 'cause there's no way on earth. And, and look, everything that's happening in America is not helping people's mental, mental health.

You, you know what I mean? And I, and, and, and that's a non-partisan, you know, statement. I mean the, the, the impacts of these changes, especially, you know, the, the liberation day stuff, I mean, that's gonna be sweeping across the board. So, um, yeah. That, that is not gonna make it easier for people, you [01:03:00] know, to, to sort of make it on a day-to-day basis.

Um, and, and so, and we don't have enough therapists, and by the way, the therapists are also burnt out, right. So, yeah. Like, I mean, who takes care of the therapist? You know? So we, we, we we're gonna have to leverage ai. I think we're beyond the point of, you know, thinking somehow we're gonna get away from that.

Vic: Yeah. Yeah. So in the store it means, so first of all. I think Dartmouth has done a lot of pretty good health policy work over the years. And, you know, they're a good research organization. They published this, it is a peer reviewed publication in the New England General of Medicine. So, I mean, it's a, it's a real study from a group that does not have, you know, an incentive to prop up their model.

Right. Like the, I think they actually were trying to understand does it work or not, which is great. 'cause we don't have a lot of that. We often have a, whatever Google or Open AI is publishing something, but they're obviously conflicted. Um, but then in there they say that for every, [01:04:00] uh, healthcare worker in, in behavioral health in the US there are 1600 patients just with depression.

Marcus: Yeah. 

Vic: And so we, we, you're right, we, we just can't, we can't manage all these patients. 

Marcus: Yeah. No, no. The the, the numbers don't work, so. 

Vic: Right, right. And it was, it was a. A very successful study and some aspects were more successful others, but it's, it's a promising, I guess, is what, 

Marcus: yeah. So I mean, let's, let's list off, list off a couple things for the, for the listeners.

Uh, people diagnosed with depression experience to 51% average reduction in symptoms leading to clinically significant improvements in mood and overall wellbeing. Um, participants with generalized anxiety reported an average reduction in symptoms of 31% with many shifting from moderate to mild anxiety or from mild anxiety to below the clinical threshold for diagnosis.

Um, and among those at risk for eating disorders who are traditionally more challenging to treat, thereabouts users showed a [01:05:00] 19% average reduction in concerns about body image and weight, which significantly outpaced a control group. That was also part of the trial. So, um, I think those are great results for a digital clinical tool.

Right. 

Vic: You know? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Seems like it's very low downside. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. So I think I at least have shifted from kind of nervous, but exploring it. Yeah. To more feeling like we gotta go, right. This is gonna be an we gotta, we gotta go, this is gonna be an important thing. Maybe there are guardrails or, or escalation paths, but, but we need, we need, we need these tools.

Marcus: Same. Same. I, I'm, I'm, I, I remember when we first started talking about it, we were like concerned and we, we, we, we had the whole eating disorder, you know, thing that the GAF that went really wrong and all that kind of stuff. And, and the reality is we're gonna have those things, but we also have like therapists that, you know Yeah.

You have therapists that do 

Vic: bad things. 

Marcus: Yeah, exactly. You know, at the end of the day, the numbers are [01:06:00] such that we're, we're never gonna get people the care they need if we don't start leveraging ai. So yeah, Bloomberg Apple Ready's is its biggest push into health yet with new AI doctor. So, uh, this is their, their Health Plus, um, uh, app, right.

Vic: Yeah, that's right. And they, they are gonna announce something at the 2025 Developer Conference in June. Um, I'm 

Marcus: buying it. Whatever it is, I'm buying it. 

Vic: Yeah, I mean, just because it's Apple, I think we need to watch it. 'cause they have a huge install base and they, they do great work, but they haven't really announced much.

It's gonna be all your wearables kind of collected and then an AI kind of health coach to help you with your health goals. Um, yeah, 

Marcus: I mean, I mean, to, to me, the, there, there were two big things about this. One. Um, uh, you know, like Apple's not doing this because they need money, right? You know, [01:07:00] uh, they, they, they still are making plenty of money.

Um, but I think they're now kind of turning on all the work they've done over the last five years to make the Apple Watch, um, a real medical device. Um, they're now turning that on and, and leveraging AI to, to, to start, um, empowering individuals in, in a way that we currently aren't empowered, right?

Because right now we just get these data points and there's nothing we can do with it. 'cause there's no intelligence behind those data points. Starting to wrap intelligence with that is, is I think a very, very powerful thing. And, you know, there's some interesting things about the health app, right? Which is that.

You can integrate your, like, depending on your provider. So not everybody can do this, but if you're with like a major provider, um, you can integrate your, your EMR and probably even more importantly than your EMR, um, your labs. You can integrate your labs into the health app, like into your Apple Health app account.

So you can just imagine, you know, combining [01:08:00] all of the biometric data that's coming from your watch on a regular basis, your exercise patterns along with this much, much richer clinical data. Um, and then the whole, you know, body of knowledge that is medicine, you know, um Right. And, and, and what could that do for individuals in terms of empowerment?

I mean, that's, that's crazy what it could do. 

Vic: Yeah, it could, it could be really empowering and really good. And the reason I think, um. I'm paying attention to it is just like you're saying, people really trust Apple. There's very few companies that you will automatically just say, sure, I'll give all my health data, all my labs, my entire medical record.

But Apple is one. They might be the only one, but there's a, there's very few and they have a, a lot of people that would do that. 

Marcus: Yep. Yep. So this is gonna be one to watch. I'm definitely buying it, so I'll let you know how, how it, how it is. Yeah. Um, we were joking about this. OpenAI finalize finalizes a [01:09:00] $40 billion funding, um, at a $300 billion value.

Vic: The numbers are just hard for me to comprehend, 

Marcus: but you know what, but you know what, it is interesting though, right? Because this is an industry that does require you to raise in billions. Yeah. That's the buy-in, right? That's the buy-in. If you wanna be a Frontier model company, I. It takes billions. It takes billions to do it.

Yeah. And, and so of course, you know, you gotta denominate those billions into a larger billion to, you know, not turn a funding event into an acquisition. So, you know, on 4,300 seems about as good as anything else, right? I mean, you know, you just change the numbers and I'm like, what if it was a $4 million round on a $30 million?

You know, pre, I mean, 

Vic: oh yeah. The percentage I think I'm fine with, right. The, yeah. I mean, right. Everyone is expecting to get to a [01:10:00] GI and some incredibly powerful new technology similar to electricity or the internet, and we'll figure out how to make money and, and you know, someone's gonna win that. So, yes.

Marcus: Start from TechCrunch more on open ai. They plan to release a new open, in quotes, AI language model in the coming months. They, they, they certainly were, were sort of caught with their pants down between deep seek and then the 10 cent model. Um, you know, they're, they're, they're no longer clearly the runaway leader.

Um, you know, Gemini 2.5 Pro is now kind of the, the, the current frontier model, um, at the head of the pack, right? And so opening AI and also opening AI's name is kind of a joke, right? Because they're, they're not open, right? So it, it does seem that they need to create something that people can embed in their own, um, hardware.

But, you know, w what, what are your, what are your thoughts about this? Do, do you feel like, I mean, it's open, it's been forced. They've been forced to do [01:11:00] this. 

Vic: Yes. And I think that's good. 

Marcus: Yeah. And 

Vic: they, they, um, they signed on to Anthropics, uh, content model protocol, which, which was good CP for the community.

And they're, they're now offering an open weight model. They, they're not showing their training data and other data, which would be more open, but, but it's better than everything else they've had. So yeah, I think it's a positive step and good and good. And they gotta, they gotta figure how to, you know, grow into a $30 billion, $300 billion valuation.

Like, maybe they can't open up everything. But yeah, I think it's a real positive that they at least are cracking the door to be open. 

Marcus: Uh, so, so we're starting to get bidders emerging for TikTok, um, ahead of Trump's deadline. Um, app Loving, which is a mobile app, uh, technology company, um, Amazon, uh, Oracle, sort of all, um, seem to be swirling around and, and talking about making a bid.

Vic: That's right. I don't think the, [01:12:00] uh. The buyers have never been the problem, though. I mean, there's plenty of buyers and whether it's Amazon App, Lubin, Oracle Yep. There's, there's a long list of buyers based on the price. The question is, you know, is, is the Chinese government gonna allow Bance to sell it?

Right. And that, that is not clear. And nothing in this story, and I don't think anyone knows, I mean, it's not clear that China and the Trump administration are, are talking about it right now. Mm-hmm. They're fighting on all other stuff. So the deadline is Saturday. Um, I don't believe that the deadline is real, so I, I can't imagine that Chinese think it's real.

Um, so I don't know what's gonna happen, but, but the, the fact that there are buyers is not surprising. I don't know if China wants to sell, 

Marcus: uh, well, especially given this week's events. Right, 

Vic: right. Right. 

Marcus: Right. [01:13:00] Um, there's already been a, 

Vic: but if they just, if, if they just refuse to sell, is Trump really gonna turn it off?

Uh, I don't know. And I, I'm not sure he will it. 

Marcus: Mm. It's, uh, it's, it's, it's hard, it's hard to say, but I'm, uh, I, I, I feel like I'm getting out of the business of, uh. Saying what he will or won't do. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, that's fair. That's fair. That, that, that's, that seems like a bad, uh, that seems like a bad bet to make.

So, alright, let's see here. Amazon unveils Nova Act. An AI agent that can control a web browser. I mean, so, 

Vic: well, so, um, you say that because you follow crypto markets where AI agents are doing all kinds of stuff and this is not very interesting. 

Marcus: No. But also, didn't philanthropic already come out with something like this?

Yeah, so philanthropic has what's called computer 

Vic: use and Okay. OpenAI has operator. Okay. Um, all of 'em are kind of boring. I mean, they [01:14:00] are giving, I mean the large, uh, mainstream companies like these three, like Amazon, anthropic, OpenAI, Gemini, all of them that are big brands. 

Marcus: Yep. 

Vic: It is. I think they're right.

It's, it's dangerous. Or we need to walk into giving too many tools to an AI too quickly. And so they are slowly rolling it out. So Amazon gave it sort of this web functionality and fro lets, it lets the AI drive your computer, can use your computer. 

Marcus: Mm-hmm. 

Vic: Um, but compared to the agents that I've been playing with, you know, that are not in big brands and spun up by individuals or very small teams, these, these, these capabilities are not very impressive.

Um, and it is not that, that these companies can't make it [01:15:00] work with many more tools. Right. They just, I think they're rolling out slowly to figure out where is the market, how can we price this? And then what's gonna be I. Both safe and able to be monetized and controlled. So yes, it's not super exciting, but it is a kind of a step and they have a SDK to sort of help you add on to what it can do with the internet.

Marcus: I think Amazon, I, I, I think Amazon has the same problem as Apple, which is their brand as, as it is associated with, um, you know, AI was Alexa. You know, just like Apple's brand with Siri and I think those are not great brands. And so I think, I just think their credibility as a leader in ai, uh, is, is just not there.

That's why I think it's great that they're so, you know, deeply invested in, in, um, anthropic. Uh, but, but I just think this AI space, the, the brand is actually quite important. Um, and, and I think in terms of [01:16:00] adoption especially, it's starting to become a pretty crowded space, right? In terms of like core frontier model model capabilities.

There's a, so I'm already trying to whittle down what am I gonna use? 'cause it's becoming too many damn models, right? Yeah. You know, I, I, I need to be productive, not just playing with everything. I need to pick what I need to pick my tools and like, use some of them. And I'm sorry, but you know, for me. Open ai, anthropic and Google are all brands where AI feels highly credible.

Like it feels really strong. Um, whereas Apple and Amazon just don't. So I'm not saying that they don't have to do this work, they do have to do this work. Uh, I just, I just question whether or not they can, they can really get, you know, strong buy-in and it's, and it's, it's not like, you know, the interesting thing about that right, is they have the strongest brand in cloud.

Yes. Um, but that's an entirely different thing. That's not the same as like actual AI capability. 

Vic: Yeah, I think that's right. I also, so I agree with you completely and [01:17:00] I think it is, we're in the early innings, right? So, um, Amazon does not have a strong brand in AI other than they're a cloud provider, which is sort of a necessary thing, but not a, not a winner.

I mean, it's like it has to be there, but you can use, certainly there's three good competitors, but I think especially when you go into agents. Um, the use case is not clear right now, so like, yeah. If, if any of these companies figures out the interface, like how can I provide, you know, my venture firm a, a thing that makes me much more productive or efficient and it fits into what they are known for.

So an Amazon, maybe it's something with e-commerce or, I mean, I, I don't know what the use case is gonna be, but that's gonna be the thing to watch. Not really this early. We like in the first inning with this rolling out a agent thing that doesn't do very much. I mean, you can order a salad on for sweet.

We, but I can do that. My phone. [01:18:00] 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so this article from Analytics India, um, why developers are canceling cursor subscriptions. Uh, I was, you know, I was, I was talking to, uh, to, to, to Nick about the unbelievable, you know, meteoric rise of, of cursor kind of zero to a hundred million in a RR, you know, so quickly.

And, and, uh, you know, my comment to him was, you know, what goes up very quickly can, you know, can also come down very quickly, right? Yeah. 'cause, uh, for, to get that type of adoption, um, it, it, it signals that people are moving very quickly. And so, you know, there there's not, there's not stickiness yet, there's not loyalty yet, there's not a deep sort of switching cost, uh, that that has to be overcome yet.

Right. Um, especially when your stuff is really just a wrapper over a, a frontier model. Um, that's right. So, so, so what's, what's sort of the meat from this article beyond my, you know, uninformed commentary? 

Vic: No, I think, I think your instinct's, right? They, um, [01:19:00] the latest, uh, anthropic release somehow didn't, they didn't have their wrapper fit well with it, and so it didn't play that well with the new anthropic.

I think they are working to fix that. Yep. Um, and then there's the next story. There's a bunch of competitors, like the other thing that, that rise in revenue from, you know, from zero to a hundred million in recurring revenue so quickly with a very small team. Uh, what that attracts is a lot of competitors.

Yes, of course. And so they, they now have really good competitors, and so the competitors are underpricing them, of course, because they, they didn't have to do the RD, they just sort of grabbed. Grab this and they do the same thing. Maybe they add some different, different pieces, but, but they can offer it for less money.

So, so, and because there's no switch costs, 

Marcus: so, so by the way, um, before we go into Windsurf, 'cause you, you played with a little bit, so I want to hear your experience with it, but I, I, I do want to say this, that point [01:20:00] you just made, that's the problem with the $300 billion value of open ai, right? The, the, the problem is that, uh, as a wave, I think we can absolutely say yes, AI is for real.

It is going to replace the way things are done in the same way that, you know, machines did during the industrial age. No, I don't think there's any question about that, but who the winners are gonna be. I don't know how you can say we know what that is. You know, we, we've, we've already had the deep seek surprise.

So, you know, you already know things can come out of left field and totally stun everybody. You already know that, right? So I think that's the, that's the hard part, right? That's the hard part. Yeah. 

Vic: That I think that's right. And it is, um, I mean, at our conference, Nicholas Holland was talking about it.

There's not really one [01:21:00] AI product, right? We're talking right now about Cursor, which is a software development AI tool. And there are, there are graphic design tools there, there's all these use cases that aren't even really products yet, but, but they're becoming products like Cursor made it a product, right?

Um, and they're all growing at different, uh, maturity rates and there's different competitive landscapes and it's not clear which products are gonna be successful. Nevermind which companies in those product categories gonna be successful And OpenAI They mean what they are planning on, I think, is that they are gonna be a trusted brand that everyone knows.

Marcus: Mm-hmm. 

Vic: And they can monetize that somehow. I'm not sure that that that works. But 

Marcus: I mean, I mean the, the key for them, and I like it, every time I see them doing it, is going enterprise, the, the key for open AI to be sticky is to go enterprise. 'cause the [01:22:00] enterprise is not fickle. Yeah. The enterprise builds in switching costs.

Vic: Yeah. That's right. 

Marcus: So I, I, I think that's their whole key, leverage the relationship with Microsoft and go enterprise. If, if they can manage to do that, I think they have a real shot at, at, at key, at growing into these valuations they keep raising at, you know? Yeah. That's the key. But all but all these folks who are like, trying to be like the, the number one consumer one by the way.

Like, we gotta give grok a lot of credit. Um, and I don't mean just grok, I mean X ai, which now owns X, like what an unbelievable unique data source grok has. Yeah. In X, right. You know, just like truly, truly real time differentiated. And I think over time it's, it's gonna become obvious how that ends up pulling away, right?

Vic: Yeah, that's right. And that, that's, we have a story of that, like two stories next. Uh, so maybe let's jump to that one. [01:23:00] Okay. Um, this is just a story in the journal about must merging. His AI company with X. So he merged X AI with X, uh, he owns it all. Yeah. So he, he decided that XI is worth 80 billion and X.

He just did flat to his take private. Well, 

Marcus: well, he, well, he, he didn't just decide, he raised at that valuation for X ai. 

Vic: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That's fair. And then he merged it with X. I'm not saying it should not worth that. I mean, I, yeah, I agree with you that the combination helps both Twitter, now X has incredible distribution and has data that comes back from that distribution, and no one is going to replicate that ever, in my opinion.

No. In the future. 

Marcus: No. Too, too sticky. 

Vic: Too sticky, and there's never gonna be another first. [01:24:00] Twitter, like, uh, microblogging platform. 

Marcus: That's right. 

Vic: Right, right. So you have lots of competitors now, but they're never gonna get that scale that X has. 

Marcus: Yeah. And it's really helpful to AI and I mean, it's, it is, it is the platform that the world's leaders use.

Vic: Yeah. 

Marcus: Right. I mean, right there, like it's, it's so that makes it the default first party news platform. 

Vic: Yeah. Right. So they have breaking news that no one else has. Yes. You could not have. That's right. You couldn't even license it. I mean, the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, whoever you want to pick, they have to gather the news, write it up.

They just don't have the same real time effectiveness. 

Marcus: That's right. 

Vic: Um, I think that's one of the reasons Amazon's really interested in buying TikTok. In order to get that data feed. Um, not so much the revenue, although I'm sure that's fine. They, they're looking for more data for their AI models. 

Marcus: Yep. Yep.

Agree. Agree. Alright, uh, two more stories. So we, we 

Vic: skipped [01:25:00] one. So, uh, cur, server, windsurf. Oh, need, yeah. So talk, talk about windsurf. Yeah. So Windsurf is a copycat cursor, right? I mean, they, they're just, they came out in December, but they're designed for the Vibe coder, like from the beginning, cursor was not really that way.

Cursor was built for software engineers, I think. And then they've tried to add in, uh, tools for people that want to code with AI but don't really know how to code. Yeah, that's right. Um, that's right. And so Windsurf is kind of the inverse of that. They, they are designed for non. Coders 

Marcus: mm-hmm. 

Vic: To use AI to get things built.

And we've talked about, I don't know if we're talking about on the show, actually getting the Python code to work is not the hard thing. Like getting it, getting the libraries right and all the components and getting it, I'd call it configured, [01:26:00] is what's hard. So it doesn't actually run because I don't have something connected in the exact right way.

It's much better at that. Um, it's just a nuanced, complex piece of actually kind of launching a software that is really important. If you don't have that, nothing works. Yep, 

Marcus: yep. 

Vic: So, um, I just, I mean, I just put it, I downloaded last night, so I, I don't have much to say about it, but it's, it's interesting 'cause that's my biggest problem.

And so if they, if they actually have solved that could be good. And it's a, it's a different use case, but they're stealing a bunch of cursor people. I think that, um, it's cheaper too, so you can, 

Marcus: yeah. And, and also people wanna try stuff. Like, we're in that phase of AI where everyone who's actually doing AI is just into trying everything.

Vic: Right, 

Marcus: right, right. So, you know, you, you, you, it's funny, right? Because Cursor [01:27:00] became the hundred million dollar, a hundred million dollar a RR company. They're actually the incumbent. They're like less than a year old, and they're an incumbent. Right. You know what I mean? So, so they're not sexy anymore.

Alright, two more stories. Gmail's making it easier for businesses to send encrypted emails to anyone. That's really good. 

Vic: Yes. This is great because they're making it easy. Like if you, we use Gmail. If you have Gmail, it's just gonna be over the next month. They're rolling it out so it's not out yet. That's great.

But they run it quickly. 

Marcus: Yeah. That's great. I didn't, I didn't know that. So that's, that just makes me happy. Okay. Very good. Uh, and then final story, how meta's upcoming $1,000 plus smart glasses with a screen will work. 

Vic: Yeah. So they are continuing down this path of, you know, some kind of glasses form factor.

Marcus: It's not really cheaper than the Vision Pro though, 

Vic: right? I know it's gonna be a thousand bucks. 

Marcus: Yeah. That's not cheaper than the Vision Pro. 

Vic: Yeah. I don't know that it's a cost thing. I don't wanna wear the Vision Pro. No. Walking around our 

Marcus: [01:28:00] office here. That's ridiculous. No, that's ridiculous. 

Vic: Right? Yeah.

But, but I think it would be cool to have a. You know, have all of that intelligence there in a form factor that doesn't look out of place. And bizarre. 

Marcus: Dude, everything is called Nova now, you know what I mean? Like these lessons are called Hyper Nova Supernova. Amazon's got their thing. Nova. I did the Nova thing before any I know, 

Vic: I know.

They're all 

Marcus: following 

Vic: you. 

Marcus: Ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Uh, I don't think I'm buying the, the, the medical glasses, but I, but not because I don't think they will be successful. Um, I, I, I've, I've said it multiple times on the show. I think that partnering with RayBan was brilliant. I think the foreign factor is very, very nice.

Um, I don't want to be the guy walking around with a camera, looking at people. I, I don't, I don't want to be that guy. Who's like, I'm a walking surveillance bot. You know what I mean? Like, [01:29:00] that's just not, I'm just not gonna, I'm just, that's, you know, whatever. You can call it a cultural issue. You can call me old, you know, a a million things.

Uh, I'm, I'm not interested in doing that, at least not until it becomes like the default thing in society. And I get dragged along, you know, kicking and screaming, but I'm, I'm not gonna be an early adopter on wearing 

Vic: Yeah. 

Marcus: Glasses that surveil people. I'm just not gonna do it, man. 

Vic: Yeah, I mean, I, uh, I probably won't either, but, but the, um, the name recognition and.

Kind of background or other things looking up? Well, I'm walking around. I mean, I used to say wouldn't wear earbuds in public because I thought it was rude, and now I've changed that 

Marcus: well be because, because it became the default behavior. Yeah. That was my caveat. You know, my, my my sort of out is if it, if it, if it turns out to be the thing everybody is doing, okay, fine.

You know, because then I'm not the creep, but I'm not gonna be the first creep, you know? Yeah, right. Definitely. I'm not the early adopter creep here, you know? Yeah. If we're all surveilling [01:30:00] everybody okay, maybe, maybe I'll consider it, but until then, 

Vic: yeah, I will, I wear contact, so I kind of, I'm waiting for the contact lens to come.

Marcus: I mean, you know, it's funny because of course it's gonna happen. I mean, yeah. It won't, it won't be very long. It really won't be very long, you know, before, before that happens. And it'll be fine that they're disposable too, like Yeah, that'll be fine too. That's right. Yeah, 

Vic: exactly. It's ridiculous. And then you won't, no one don't know that I'm wearing them.

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, alright, you are out next week. Um, I will do a show with Paul Cappleman, so I'm really excited about that. Yeah. You've done two shows with him. I love both of them. Yes. So i's great. Excited to get a chance to do a show with him. Uh, and then you'll be back the following week and I would imagine probably not next week, but you know, maybe in two weeks we'll get the episode with se with Senator Fri, um, out there to the people.

Yeah. 

Vic: Okay, great. 

Marcus: Awesome. 

Vic: Alright, have a good time next week. I will listen to it and I will not, I won't be there. Live. Very good, man. All right. Take care. [01:31:00] Yeah.